Coincidence isn't supportable
I chose to remove a notation that cited the coincidence between the First Hybrid's demise and Hara Agathon's birth. Interesting, but there's nothing officially in the source episodes to link the two events as yet, so I felt that less was more here. --Spencerian 11:42, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- That was indeed fanwanky, and it's far more likely that he is truly dead and is just referring to the cycle of time. People add all kind of nonsense speculation here, but somehow I don't want to look too strict and remove everything after 10 seconds :s --Serenity 12:18, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- I tried not to write any conclusion into the coincidence, though of course an obvious one is implied. It would be a Fanwank to say "The Hybrid downloaded into Hera" and thus I did not write that. However because this episode airs much later, it is relevant to make note of when it takes place (Lee's first mission after Captain's Hand) because the chronology is not as evident to the viewer. My personal view is that while you discourage people putting their personal theories into the articles, it is actually very worthwhile to document the actual material from the show (and reality) which are clues in making up and judging theories. For example, every bio-Cylon we've seen can download (we've never been told about the sentient classic models but it certainly makes sense that they could, the humans would have wanted to be able to preserve and copy their experiences) so it is a fanwank to speculate that the Hybrid can't, especially when he muses about it. However, I think the right role of the wiki is to document the facts: Cylons can download, the hubrid muses about living after his destruction, all all this takes place in the chronology just prior to Sharon going into emergency premature labour. Now I don't actually hold a strong view here on whether Hera is a new incarnation of the Cylon god or not. The fact that events are aligned so that it is possible is worth documenting. (I will add that since the Season 4 trailer, which you may view as a spoiler, does a repeat of the hybrid saying "my children believe I am a god" in the context of the Opera House and the Final 5, there's a lot more reason to believe the Hybrid is a copy of the Cylon god, and thus surely downloaded in some fashion. Do we consider trailer clues to be spoilers?) --Bradtem 15:47, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- That he can download? Sure? It might be possible, though it's something that's usually associated with the human-like Cylons which come after the first Hybrid. But since they did experiments on humans maybe. But to even imply that he somehow downloads into a baby that isn't even resurrected, but born naturally, doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And that's what the note did.
- Personally I'm also against stating that the first hybrid is the Cylon God in a definite way. "a god" isn't the same as "God". And the trailers are often cut in a way to take dialogue out of context. Interpreting them is something for a forum, but not here IMHO. --Serenity 16:59, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- I would be very surprised if the centurions can't download, but we're never told. Nor are we told about hybrids. I do believe stating that he probably can't download is as much, if not more, speculation than suggesting he can. All we know is he talked about living on after his destruction. Nor do I believe we should say that he is the Cylon god, or not. All this is beside my point. We don't want to write these speculative conclusions, but it's wrong not to document the important details from the show that are clues to speculations. Yes, what clues you choose to document may imply speculations, but so what? "Document real events from the show" draws a nice line. You can't make a rule of "document only what I think is important, remove what others think is important if I don't agree" as that's way too arbitrary. I'm not saying I think he downloaded into Hera. But I do think the wiki should make the reader aware of the chronology and make their own conclusions. I documented this one because the chronology is more subtle with the episodes not airing in chronological order. Now, as to the Cylon god, are you under the impression the Cylon god is "God" as opposed to "a god?" That's not something I've seen in the show. The Cylons think he is of course, but he's their god. From the outside, we have clues like the fact oracles like Selloi say they speak to both their own gods and the Cylon god. Anyway, the trailer gives a strong clue that the Hybrid is somehow related to the Cylon god, and I suspect he is a copy of him. I am not saying that this speculation should be in the Wiki, but the important clues from the show should be. If not, why not? (On another note, should the Season 4 sneak peak stuff be classed as spoiler, or aired?) --Bradtem 19:00, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- The note as it stands now is pointless. I'm removing it. OTW 18:53, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- Pointless? Trust me, RDM doesn't put in lines like the hybrid musing about future existence without a big reason. I think it would be very wrong not to document it, it's one of the most important things revealed about the being! (Ah, I now see you only wanted to delete the part about the chronology wrt Hera)--Bradtem 19:00, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- I tried not to write any conclusion into the coincidence, though of course an obvious one is implied. It would be a Fanwank to say "The Hybrid downloaded into Hera" and thus I did not write that. However because this episode airs much later, it is relevant to make note of when it takes place (Lee's first mission after Captain's Hand) because the chronology is not as evident to the viewer. My personal view is that while you discourage people putting their personal theories into the articles, it is actually very worthwhile to document the actual material from the show (and reality) which are clues in making up and judging theories. For example, every bio-Cylon we've seen can download (we've never been told about the sentient classic models but it certainly makes sense that they could, the humans would have wanted to be able to preserve and copy their experiences) so it is a fanwank to speculate that the Hybrid can't, especially when he muses about it. However, I think the right role of the wiki is to document the facts: Cylons can download, the hubrid muses about living after his destruction, all all this takes place in the chronology just prior to Sharon going into emergency premature labour. Now I don't actually hold a strong view here on whether Hera is a new incarnation of the Cylon god or not. The fact that events are aligned so that it is possible is worth documenting. (I will add that since the Season 4 trailer, which you may view as a spoiler, does a repeat of the hybrid saying "my children believe I am a god" in the context of the Opera House and the Final 5, there's a lot more reason to believe the Hybrid is a copy of the Cylon god, and thus surely downloaded in some fashion. Do we consider trailer clues to be spoilers?) --Bradtem 15:47, 3 December 2007 (CST)
- I'm saying that the Guardians' god isn't necessarily the same as the humanoid Cylons' god. That's one of these assumptions that is just made, instead of leaving all possibilities open.
- Heck, I'm not even anywhere near convinced that the Cylon God has a physical manifestation, and is not just a belief in a higher being. Although I also dislike any storyline that actually makes him a real being. That would work if it's just a rational kind of machine intelligence (as trite as that idea is), but some mix between fact and supernatural as is sometimes implied both by the show and fans just doesn't fit with the show's style for me. --Serenity 01:51, 4 December 2007 (CST)
- Yup, we don't yet know. But the evidence grows more and more compelling, and I think it's worth documenting. We've got RDM saying the main purpose of Razor was to show us the Starbuck prophecy. We've got the line about being a God given prominence in the sneak peak. We've got various lines about the other Hybrids having a channel to the Cylon god. We've got completely unexplained knowledge from this First Hybrid and the others. We've got Selloi getting a communication from the Cylon God which is accurate. We've got other divine beings, the Lords of Kobol who were physical beings. We've got a Lord of Kobol who was jealous and wanted to be elevated above others, who may be the same god the 5 priests/F5 worship. There's more than this. It's a strong case, getting stronger. Follow the link from my talk page for more info if you care to.--Bradtem 03:08, 4 December 2007 (CST)
- There is an inherent futility to making such predictions. There are literally an infinite number of different directions that the series could follow, and the one RDM has chosen does not have to be the most logical. Heck, anyone who suggested Tigh could be a Cylon before Crossroads, Part II would have been laughed at here. We can't have one theory chosen and then the encyclopaedia dotted with arguments to support it (consciously highlighting things which support your theory is really the same thing). It is probably best to consider these issues briefly in Razor#Analysis or Razor#Questions. OTW 06:20, 4 December 2007 (CST)
- Actually, that's kinda my point. I ran up against this wall over questions very much like that. I did suggest that people such as Tigh could be a Cylon, and wanted to document not the speculation that he was (except in the official speculation page,) but the various real clues from the show that pointed to the fact. And it was indeed laughed at, and more to the point strongly resisted. Now I was right, and they were wrong, and it's not of course assured that I won't be wrong and the others right in other situations, but I think anything that keeps out of the Wiki important facts that turn out to be vital to understanding the show is a sign of something going wrong. This show is a mystery, after all, and like a mystery, it's full of clues, and like a mystery people will all have their theories, some crazy, some on target. But perhaps I am alone in thinking an important part of a Wiki like this is to document the clues -- which means yes, the things people with theories think are clues -- and leave out or isolate the theories, and let people come to their own conclusions. Lots of stuff in the show is subtle, and its importance not always clear to all viewers. Am I wrong in assuming that a large fraction of the viewers want to puzzle over the mysteries of the show and want information to help them? Or does everybody want just a dry recounting of what seems obvious at the time? As a discussion of Wiki policy, does it make sense to move this to a different talk page, perhaps?--Bradtem 23:44, 4 December 2007 (CST)
- There is an inherent futility to making such predictions. There are literally an infinite number of different directions that the series could follow, and the one RDM has chosen does not have to be the most logical. Heck, anyone who suggested Tigh could be a Cylon before Crossroads, Part II would have been laughed at here. We can't have one theory chosen and then the encyclopaedia dotted with arguments to support it (consciously highlighting things which support your theory is really the same thing). It is probably best to consider these issues briefly in Razor#Analysis or Razor#Questions. OTW 06:20, 4 December 2007 (CST)
- Yup, we don't yet know. But the evidence grows more and more compelling, and I think it's worth documenting. We've got RDM saying the main purpose of Razor was to show us the Starbuck prophecy. We've got the line about being a God given prominence in the sneak peak. We've got various lines about the other Hybrids having a channel to the Cylon god. We've got completely unexplained knowledge from this First Hybrid and the others. We've got Selloi getting a communication from the Cylon God which is accurate. We've got other divine beings, the Lords of Kobol who were physical beings. We've got a Lord of Kobol who was jealous and wanted to be elevated above others, who may be the same god the 5 priests/F5 worship. There's more than this. It's a strong case, getting stronger. Follow the link from my talk page for more info if you care to.--Bradtem 03:08, 4 December 2007 (CST)
Oh yeah, if you are interested in a discussion of the pros and cons of him being the Cylon god, for which this page is not the place, check out http://ideas.4brad.com/cylon-god-and-hybrid --Bradtem 04:14, 5 December 2007 (CST)
- As far as I can tell, this encyclopedia's purpose is "a dry recounting of what seems obvious at the time", seeing itself as an organized secondary source of information such that discussion and debate can happen elsewhere (see Battlestar Wiki:Battlestar Wiki is not a forum, Battlestar Wiki:What Battlestar Wiki is not), such as on sites as yours. There is Humanoid Cylon speculation as an outlet for the inevitable questioning on that topic, but currently no other pages of that ilk. You may try creating a similar page speculating upon the Cylon religion, but I guess that might be controversial. OTW 07:12, 5 December 2007 (CST)
- And I do understand the philosophy against filling the wiki with lots of speculation. (Though I think heroeswiki.com does pretty well by having an explicit "fan theories" set of pages, apart from the main pages.) And I might agree with you about the dry recounting (or at least recounting, no reason to make it too dry) but I disagree about the "what seems obvious at the time." Everything people add to the Wiki has some perception of why it's important behind it. (There are some sites with pure transcripts if you prefer that, and they are useful) That's why I think a rule of "only document what the show tells us, and not your speculations" is not a bad rule. However, what I see happening is people overdoing it, and seeking to remove material which, while real and from the show, happens to imply speculations they don't agree with, while keeping or writing material which implies speculations they do agree with. In the example which I brought up, which is here: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=107966 we had a page which made declarations that "No character who has had children can be a Cylon" and "No character that has a history going back more than 2 years in the colonies can be a Cylon" and the like. I tried to edit the wiki to remove these statements as baseless speculations, and put in what we had really seen (but not the implicit conclusion that even the likes of Tigh and Tyroll could be Cylons), and I was, as you suggest, not taken seriously. But I was watching a lot more closely than most, at least in this case. I think we want people to watch closely, notice clues and document them -- as long as they stick documenting what really is in the show or external sources. So I would never have written "the hybrid downloaded into Hera" (I don't even think that's all that likely) but I did feel appropriate to note that the two events appear close in time. So once again, I am not saying you want speculation, but I think a lot of the stuff of mine that has been removed has gone not because it was speculation, but because it didn't agree with other people's speculations, and not just in the case I cite above.--Bradtem 15:19, 5 December 2007 (CST)
- OK, this discussion is getting to in-depth for an article talk page. Perhaps you would like to create a Battlestar Wiki:Think Tank proposal to take this further? OTW 15:42, 5 December 2007 (CST)
- And I do understand the philosophy against filling the wiki with lots of speculation. (Though I think heroeswiki.com does pretty well by having an explicit "fan theories" set of pages, apart from the main pages.) And I might agree with you about the dry recounting (or at least recounting, no reason to make it too dry) but I disagree about the "what seems obvious at the time." Everything people add to the Wiki has some perception of why it's important behind it. (There are some sites with pure transcripts if you prefer that, and they are useful) That's why I think a rule of "only document what the show tells us, and not your speculations" is not a bad rule. However, what I see happening is people overdoing it, and seeking to remove material which, while real and from the show, happens to imply speculations they don't agree with, while keeping or writing material which implies speculations they do agree with. In the example which I brought up, which is here: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humanoid_Cylon_speculation&oldid=107966 we had a page which made declarations that "No character who has had children can be a Cylon" and "No character that has a history going back more than 2 years in the colonies can be a Cylon" and the like. I tried to edit the wiki to remove these statements as baseless speculations, and put in what we had really seen (but not the implicit conclusion that even the likes of Tigh and Tyroll could be Cylons), and I was, as you suggest, not taken seriously. But I was watching a lot more closely than most, at least in this case. I think we want people to watch closely, notice clues and document them -- as long as they stick documenting what really is in the show or external sources. So I would never have written "the hybrid downloaded into Hera" (I don't even think that's all that likely) but I did feel appropriate to note that the two events appear close in time. So once again, I am not saying you want speculation, but I think a lot of the stuff of mine that has been removed has gone not because it was speculation, but because it didn't agree with other people's speculations, and not just in the case I cite above.--Bradtem 15:19, 5 December 2007 (CST)
Is the First Hybrid the central computer of the Guardian basestar?
I removed the statement "Like the modern Hybrids, the First Hybrid functions as the central computer of its basestar, but it also appears to act as the basestar's command and control, given the absence of modern humanoid Cylons aboard" because of the following:
- It is presented as a statement of fact, which I don't believe was affirmatively shown in the episode.
- It also appears to contradict the statement that other hybrids were created to control the basestars, which implies a change or addition of purpose.
- As for the lack of humanoid Cylons aboard - the mechanical Cylons were intelligent enough to fly Raiders, they could probably pilot and operate a basestar, as seen from the original basestars battling the Colonial Fleet.-- Fredmdbud 07:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- I re-worded the statement into a series of questions, should the matters eventually clear up.-- Fredmdbud 07:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)